Panel Discussion: Climate Change & Professional Services: What will PSF’s look like in 2030? (Video + Transcription included)
Projectworks hosted a 40-minute webinar that included 3 expert panellists that discussed how you can future-proof your professional services firm and what a green business could look like in 2030.
The expert panellists were:
Dr Christine Arrowsmith - Streamology Waterway Science and Management
Grant Symons – Transition-HQ New Zealand
Carlos Chambers - CarbonInvoice™
The key questions addressed in the discussion were:
Today and in 2030: What role do PSFs play within the climate discussion?
How will successful PSFs act/behave (in relation to climate change), and what macro trends have influenced them on their way there
What can a PSF do to future-proof its business today?
It was a unique opportunity to hear from industry leaders at the forefront of change, sharing their views and thoughts about how businesses could be affected.
“There’s a bit of paralysis around the uncertainty in decision-making in an uncertain environment.”
Don’t worry if you missed the Webinar, you can now watch or read the transcript of the expert discussion below.
Climate Change & Professional Services Video Transcription
Madeleine:
So hi, I'm Madeline, the Head of Sales at Projectworks. And I'm very excited to be hosting this timely discussion about climate change and the interaction with the professional services industry on its impact and how professional services firms can contribute to dealing with climate change. And we have a few panellists here today that I'm really excited to have and to welcome. And so we can go ahead and jump into hearing a little bit more from them. So if we can start with Dr Christine Arrowsmith and just hear a little about your background, Christine, and your role there at Streamology.
Dr Christine:
Great. Thanks very much, Madeline. Thank you for having me today, to this webinar. I'm an engineer by trade, water and coastal sort of systems. And we're currently at Streamology, a bespoke consultancy aimed at forging or bridging the gap between waterway and Coastal Research and management, and actual practical application. So we want to inform our decision-making through laser science when we will look at how we manage our systems from catchments to the coast. And we want to work closely with universities and our clients to build knowledge and create innovative solutions. And so the aim of what we want to do is inextricably linked to or highly related to the climate debate because much of what we do is in this natural system, and it's changing around us. And my role at Streamology. I'm the co-CEO. So we've taken a slightly different model than other companies. And we've got two of us working together. And the reason for that is that we like the technical side of things. So we want to be actively involved. But obviously, you've got to run a business. So that's what we're trying to share the load. Thanks for having me.
Madeleine:
Wonderful. Thank you. And, Grant, let's hear a little bit about you.
Grant:
Yeah, thanks. So yes, Grant Simons. I'm worth transition HQ, actually, the founder of transition HQ. It's a boutique consultancy in Wellington, New Zealand. And we focus on three areas. We are concerned with the education of executives and the building of capability for organizations to do a transition. And along with that, we've got relationships and the research fields around energy in materials research and transition and those sectors. And we do a little bit of consulting as well. So those things bind together in a loop. So we get the learning going. So we've got a philosophy that it's much more than climate change. So we'll talk about the transition from the perspective that a lot of things are happening simultaneously, like getting bundled into climate change. But looking at that holistic view of transition, we can see that a few common threads start to pop out, especially around the energy of materials, which I'll talk a little bit about today. Thanks.
Madeleine:
Wonderful. Good to have you. And Carlos from Carboninvoice?
Carlos:
Hi, I'm Carlos Chambers, Founder and CEO of CarbonInvoice. We exist to help small businesses, small and medium businesses take meaningful action on climate change. We are a climate financial technology software company, which has just recently launched our product into the market in the last three weeks, and we are exclusively focused on services firms. So I've been working on climate, on and off, for the last 15 years. I've been a regulator in petition lawyer at a New Zealand firm Russell McVeigh, where I did some climate-related work. I helped establish the largest Youth Climate organization in New Zealand called Generation zero, contributing to the climate Act, which is New Zealand's dominant piece of legislation implemented by the current government. And then I've built successful FinTech software companies over the last eight years. So I'm bringing those different parts of my experience and perspective together for cabinet voice. Back to you, Madeline.
Madeleine:
Awesome, thank you. So we can jump into our first question. Essentially, today, we're going to go through three main questions and hear from everyone and then we're going to open it up to questions from the attendees. So you'll have a chance to submit those as well. So for the first question, today and in 2030, what role do professional services firms play within the climate discussion? So maybe we can start with you, Carlos, and I'd love to hear what you think.
Carlos:
Sure, I'm happy to kick it off. So I think we've got the audience's yeah, there's some engineering and several consulting firms. Obviously, Professional Services are a very broad segment. No one has been able to land a specific definition, we think about them, or I think about them as knowledge-intensive firms who sell their time. And that knowledge, so happy to take other definitions, but that's it, maybe King one. So I mean, the first fact is that in most developed economies, and even you know, a big proportion of developing economies, services firms are part of the small medium enterprise carbon footprint. And that's roughly between 30 and 45% of global emissions. So there's this very big footprint from small businesses themselves. So the services firm has a footprint, and then they typically advise and work with clients with their own footprint. So I think that's one, you know, a starting point to think about. There are a lot of them. So there's, you know, hundreds of millions of these organizations. They're quite diverse and different to one another. So they can be, you know, nuanced in terms of how you deal with them. It's not, you know, in New Zealand and Australia, for instance, we have regulations that apply to big corporate, predominantly listed companies. Still, for small and medium enterprises, which most services firms are, it is a, you know, a much more nuanced and diverse picture. So I think I mean, I think that's one way to think about it. Professional services firms have a footprint themselves, and they have a client base who have a footprint. And oh, yeah, I'll hand to hand to grad and Christine, but I think that's a starting point.
Madeleine:
Interesting. Thank you. Grant.
Dr Christine:
Yeah, so I'm going to come in with a bit of a higher-level view of the transition. So we see there's a lot of potential a lot of disruption happening over the next decade or so. Which is gonna relate to the climate possibly, you know, geopolitical unrest, conflict. So looking at those kinds of things, it's possibly gonna be a world where we were looking at a lot of potential flip-flopping in the political arena because it's going to be really hard for, you know, the political machine to deal with what's going on. And that will. We'll possibly sort of flow on to how legislation plays out how consumers behave and what businesses do. So if we fit the context and the backdrop, one might ask, what are professional services firms going to be doing? I think it's going to be, you know, helping people make decisions and their changing world. And it's going to be at various levels of granularity, as, as Carlos mentioned, you know, there's going to be stuff, counting, you know, carbon and doing that stuff at that granular level. But I suspect that people will have to be making decisions on the fly often; there's gonna be a lot of change happening. So that's kind of where we're going into. So I've coined this term, helping people that help others, you know, make decisions is probably a pretty good place to be.
Madeleine:
That's interesting. Yeah. So, you know, I heard from Carlos also, you know, focusing on the company itself, and its footprint and the companies that they work with and their footprint, and you're, you're seeing it, you're kind of getting a different angle of professional services, advising people in a rapidly changing landscape, which is, of course, like consulting firms have been addressing change, you know, for a long time, and this is this will be a new, a new set of maybe a new speed of change that we're dealing with. Absolutely. Dr Christine?
Dr Christine:
Yes, I think both Grant and Carlos have raised similar thoughts to what I had in terms of how we provide advice to our clients. And because we're both working in, and I'm taking it from an individual perspective, and how that plays out across another sort of consulting firms, but we work in natural resources, it's extremely inextricably linked to the climate discussion. We advise a whole range of clients, and they'll need to adapt at an ever-increasing rate to those changes mentioned in that grant. So we must also be able to be on top of those changes, what they mean for our clients, and how we can move through the world. So with these changes happening, and then within our own company, I guess we like to think that we may be small, but we do our part as well. So what are we doing within our own company to provide leadership to our communities on climate change, and what can we do to reduce our environmental impact? So you know, where are we working? How are we travelling? can we influence purchasing for ourselves and our clients? How can we provide leadership through advice to our clients, such as documenting carbon footprints, greenhouse gas emissions, and all that through our work for them? Also, what was the advice we provided to them? So I think there's a whole lot of different ways that we can be involved in the climate discussion, and we can influence that discussion going forward as well.
Madeleine:
Yeah, and I'm curious, you know, as you describe that, is that something you've looked at or are already doing? Is it talking about kind of the omissions involved in your work, like communicating that with clients? Or is that more of a thought for the future?
Dr Christine:
At a smaller level, I guess, at this point, because, well, a recent project relates to dredging, that side of things and greenhouse gas emissions related to the activities is a significant consideration. So you have to document what those emissions are. And that informs some of the decision-making around the options that are required and that sort of thing. But I think when we think about our projects, in general, there's a, there is more definitely more that we can do to help inform that. Suppose people have to choose between different options and make it upfront for them to understand you. In that case, there is an implication around what they're doing, what the decisions they make, and how that will affect things in the future.
Carlos:
Yeah, I think that's a great point, Christina. I mean, there's sort of this opportunity, or I would even say, duty on professional services firms of different types to contribute to the discussion. Because you know, there's so much change that's going to take place, right, like the not the amount of legislation and regulation. The next couple of decades that governments at the municipal and state levels are going to impose will be enormous, right? And then democracies, like the two that your panel is setting out. Yeah, the three that depend on sitting in America, Australia, and New Zealand, part of that came out of the democratic processes and engagement from experts. So I really think the, you know, there is that opportunity for services firms to get involved in that. And by doing that, you build knowledge, voice, and communication ability, and you become an expert or even more of an expert in that area. So I think that's an opportunity. I think the communication and articulation of the climate discussion, an opportunity on service for services firms, is to make it understandable. You know, most people do not have a doctor in front of their names, or, you know, have deep experience or capability, understanding climate science or greenhouse gas emissions. So I think an opportunity for all types of services firms has to learn to communicate with their clients and understand how people can get their heads around. Because once we have language and, you know, meeting of the minds and comprehension, then we can discuss the ways forward and the actions. Yeah, I think that's quite specific, in some ways, to services firms, and they very uniquely placed to help their clients out on that front.
Grant:
Yeah, I agree with Carlos there. I think an understanding of the conditions is that change often needs often needs to be translated to the current state and the current reality or where people are at. So professional services, and firms, could do consultants, perhaps even engineers. So on, we've got to start looking into the future, seeing those patterns, seeing those things are changing by being in a position to translate that back into where people are right now. Because it just doesn't make sense for many folks who are not across all the time.
Dr Christine:
There's a bit of paralysis around the uncertainty in decision-making in an uncertain environment. And you see that through state municipal agencies, they cannot make a decision because there are too many pathways to potentially take. So translating that into manageable chunks of knowledge that they can make an informed decision upon is what we have to do in the future. Or as we will sit in the state of Nibbler making a decision because we can't choose between so many different futures that might be there.
Carlos:
Since the late 70s, we've understood climate science. There's been this paralysis by analysis at, you know, at a nation-state level, we've been debating it for 40-something years, about what we should do. And I think everyone now is in a position where people agree on the targets. Basically, the consensus on net zero by 2050. And the paralysis has now moved down to how we get to those targets. So I mean, part of the whole thing that we're working on at covenant voices, giving firms the most, the easiest way to get started, you know, measure your footprint with existing financial data, which you already have in your accounting system, start to take action, start to publish your footprint at the invoice level, you know, take actions like offsetting, and in the future, you know, reducing your cabin and tipsy. I think it's like, just get going. I mean, have a little bit of a think about it, don't just run off into the hills. But I think, yeah, the opportunity the time is now to get started. And I think we do have to. I love that saying Christine's "paralysis by analysis" because it describes so well how we've handled how humanity has handled the climate crisis to date.
Madeleine:
Yeah, that's interesting, the parallel between our broader societal response and dealing with it on a micro or individual level. So let's do the next question. How will successful professional services firms act in relation to climate change? And what macro trends have influenced them on their way there?
Grant:
Who wants to start, go ahead and open up a little bit there? I think we're going to see greater levels of transparency. It just doesn't matter which way you look. I mean, there are folks out there that collect data, publish data, the government's going to be wanting more transparency, and so on, and so on. So transparency will probably increase, but the resolution of the issues will not get any easier. So there's a sort of, you know, sort of bringing together of these two forces, which I think professional services firms have a great opportunity to actually see those things and use that, that sort of that environment that's getting created to actually try translate, take what's coming out of the system, or showing up in the system to actually help the clients. Like I said before, you know, you need to be helping your clients or helping your clients help somebody else to be adding value in that space. But transparency and more sort of conflicting issues, which is probably going to have us need to be even better, kind of like that whole system view. So you know, you don't get into a whole system view by trying to come down from the top Carlos said you really want to be building up from the bottom. Still, somehow you've got to have this more holistic view?
Dr Christine:
Thank you. I was gonna say I think that the speed of changes is a critical one as well. And I can definitely see that transparency and requirements under, you know, even in tenders, things like diversity, social responsibility, or becoming explicit within briefs that are put out by clients. And so climate will become part of that. You'll have to show how you will meet their requirements. But I think the onus is on us to lead the way to show our clients some of the tools and ways to manage that going forward and how we can interact and change things. You think about just transport, and back in the 2000s, we were worried about fuel efficiency for going out to the site and looking at things and risk for us here. And in Australia, looking at a fire that was legalised in the siphon, it really dries the weather. We've moved through to hybrid vehicles, and should we make sure that all our staff use those vehicles to go out? Because of the very slow response at the government level, electric is only just becoming part of that discussion. But that's, that's where it's heading. So there are some of these broad influences we need to take up, grab and work with to make change happen for ourselves and those around us. And I think the speed of that change will increase both because it needs to because the climate is changing and changing at a rapid rate. But also, because the opportunities out there now and things happening in the space look more impetus that will drive that change.
Madeleine:
Thank you, that's interesting to hear about drawing a parallel with another kind of social issue being asked for by clients. And seeing that as leading going that way. But as you said, you know, wanting to lead the way, not just be led by the clients and specific examples you gave. That's, it's quite interesting. Carlos? Yes, I
Carlos:
think you're, I think a way of looking at it for services firms is what you know, what's going to be true in 2030, at at at a regulatory level, and the market that you're trading in, what's going to be true at a societal level, you know, the sort of general water that we all swim in? What's going to be true at your customer and client level. I believe that regulation of most services firms, in most industries, will come reasonably slowly. And, again, if we take the three GIOS that we're talking about, New Zealand, Australia, and America, I don't think Europe will be exceptional. They are already taking industry-specific regulatory steps. And New Zealand, we've recently had specific agricultural regulations for farmers around greenhouse gas, both carbon and methane emissions. So I think that there'll be some exceptions to that. But in general, I think the political environment is not set up to apply a lot of sticks to small businesses and these markets, so then you go, we'll Okay, so it's gonna be market LED. And then that's your lens for inquiry, I think, you know, the pressure will be, or maybe as the rest of the crew referred to at the speed of change, will come from different areas. Right. So, we're, we definitely see in Australia. New Zealand pressure in that procurement space, you know, the large companies who are buying services from professional services firms, you know, they are regulated, they have set targets, and they are they're now starting to select their suppliers based on those targets, and who can help them meet them. So I think that's, that's really interesting. There was a visit telco one of the large New Zealand telcos in the last few weeks that have published their own science-based reduction target and is now notifying their suppliers that they expect their suppliers to meet that same reduction target. And it's pretty aggressive. It's 40%. Net reduction and seven years. So I think you'll see patterns like that, and then the procurement process where services firms will, will be forced to start taking action if they're not already and being able to communicate and describe it in the RFP process, which Christine touched on. Certainly, the banks, you know, the lending market, we've had, we've had sort of green bond instruments for a long time. That's now moving to green commercial finance. So you have these sustainability-linked loans, where your terms are linked to hitting sustainability targets. And then secondly, you have green loans, which stimulate things like electric vehicle financing, which Christine also mentioned. So I think the banks who, you know, have a really close relationship with the government and the regulator will be another source where the financing world will put pressure on businesses, including services firms. I'll give one more example of pressure points, but we've done market research. We surveyed about 1000 small businesses in Australasia, North America, the UK, France, and Sweden. And one of the trends that were so clear was 2020 to 30-year-olds, so young Gen Y and Gen Z. Overwhelmingly, eight out of 10 of those surveyed ranked climate as a top issue that they would select who they're working for. On that basis, when you go up to 60 to 70-year-olds, it was closer to 1.5 out of 10, where the climate was a top issue in selecting an employer. So you're getting you'll get that generation coming through and gaining more power and influence in the workforce. And their preferences and beliefs, and decisions will start to weigh the organization. For services firms that don't respond to that, you struggle to build your workforce and talent pool because you know that young people won't want to work for you.
Madeleine:
Thank you. Yeah, there's a really interesting point about the macro trends, regulations of business, economic factors, and then the employer branding piece or the ability to attract and retain talent. Good point. So last question. What can a professional services firm do to future-proof? Is business today? Maybe? Yeah, maybe one or two tips may be from all of us. Christine, do you want to start? Think Carla
Carlos:
Stole Nightline was about diversity and about having a range of voices, both to promote change into the future and to be able to listen to as well because they all have diverse people in different generations with diverse views. And we need to account for all of them. And the younger generations coming through are very important because they're the ones that we're passing the baton to each time in terms of our future. So yeah, I think diversity and mindsets and mindset for change. Thinking about the future as a changeable world, not as something fixed, and learning to live with uncertainty, investigate, and feel comfortable with how things will change. It's gonna be really important.
Madeleine:
Yeah, in the beautiful philosophical statement, this is a changeable world. You can imagine we can imagine something different. So So, yeah. And the younger generations. Yeah. So all right, Carlos? Yeah,
Carlos:
I mean, this is a big question, right? And we've talked generally about the importance of getting started. I mean, my strong belief is that the firms and the people who start their journey, you know, sooner rather than later, prosper and find it easier further down the track. And it's, it's exactly Christine's point because there is going to be so much change. So setting yourself up. And you know, taking a proactive Ford stance, rather than being flat-footed and getting hit by it, I think it is the first kind of mindset shift to make. And then you've got to look at your industry, your client base, what is going on, and where the specific pressure points are for you. I mean, let's face it, many service firms are really busy. And the main priority is to keep workout and delivering to timeframes and projects. And if it's not doing that, it's figuring out where the next work will come from. Like, I've worked in a services environment. And so I have total empathy for that, and I've run smaller businesses, so I understand it. So yeah, I think you've got to look at low-effort, high-impact things that you can do, which don't cost you the earth and time or money. And do get you started on your journey. And yeah, I mean, that's exactly what would trip what was built and designed with cabin and voice, I think a key question is, do you want to, you know, make your point or allow someone to take the lead on the space into your team? I think that's really important. And suppose you have younger people who are the research I shared. In that case, they're probably interested in and excited by that. So I think that's an opportunity for Talent Development. If you don't have someone up for it, think about recruiting for that and your next role. I mean, there's there is knowledge out there. You can engage consultants and stuff. But again, I think for most of many service firms, the cost is often prohibitive. So yeah, I'd be looking at, I think it's looking at high impact, low effort, ways to get started. And don't get too paralyzed. What about you? What do you what do you recommend?
Grant:
So we were encouraging clients, and I guess this probably lines up with, you know, the folks on this call as well, professional services firms, is the rate of change that you've talked about, Christine's talked about the rate of change, the magnitude of change, change in mindset, it's all going to require, I think, a lot of innovation. And creating the space for that innovation is going to be really important. And I think, certainly from our perspective and experience I've had in my career, to be in an innovation space, you've got to have a really good or deep relationship with your clients. So I've been encouraging small services firms to have at least one or two anchor clients that you can have a really deep close relationship with, where you can kind of almost partner on the really deep, gnarly issues that they've got in, so both of you learn and both of you can create that innovation space. Because I think, as Carlos says, Unless you get into it and start doing it, you're not going to be there anyway. And for them to be in a strong, deep relationship. It's almost like a foundational condition for doing this work as we go into the future, at least worth one or two clients I would recommend. Because if you think about going into the future, there's a high likelihood that we have less abundant resources. So you hear, you know, President McCrone of France say the era of abundance is over. So cheap energy and cheap materials are probably coming to an end. So there's going to be a need for more prioritization changes and different ways of doing things. We've talked about mindset. But all of this may mean that we're going to have to innovate in new ways. We can't just do business as usual as we used to do. We can't just do engineering like we used to do. We actually have to innovate. So. So yeah, around innovation, relationship, you've got to have a relationship in place and be trusted to work in that space.
Madeleine:
Great, thank you. Yeah. So some kind of practical ideas there for, you know, partnering with clients, helping you develop innovative solutions to problems as they're changing. And also noticed that I was thinking earlier when Christine was speaking about, you know, how to engage the younger people in the process. And then I heard Carlos say, well, you can, you can appoint one of them, as you know, to lead you in climate-related efforts. So I thought that was an interesting point as well. Yeah.
Grant:
just on the I mean, we encourage our clients to build internal networks. So we do some education and then help them build the peer-to-peer networks internally. So if you want to have, you know, a large organization changing and moving and shifting the mindset and the culture, you got to have a network inside. In Eskelsen, Christina said, the younger people will be more open to that. It's not that older people don't actually enjoy doing it, they can get involved in the change and the transition work, but they've got to kind of have the language for the tools and the support to get going. Sorry, Carlos.
Carlos:
No, no, that's good. Yeah. No, I was just going to add, I mean, if, if your clients aren't asking, assume they will. You know, they'll generally start with what are you? What are you doing? What are you doing in your organization? Because they do not see you the as the subject matter expert as their advisor, maybe as the research partner. So they will ask, what are you doing in this space? You know, what have you guys done to understand your footprint? So I think you should treat that as a given and consider what you will do. Because it is a leadership thing, right? Suppose you're going to engage your clients and answer the questions. In that case, you want to speak from a position of knowledge and empowerment and productivity.
Madeleine:
Great, thank you. So now, we have six minutes left. I'd love to hear from attendees. If you have any questions, you can submit them in the chat field or in the q&a field, I can see either, and I can read it out. So we'll see if anything comes through for any of our very talented panellists.
Carlos:
I'll throw it out there while we're waiting. Suppose Christine, you and I do a lot of work with government clients. What do you see as the differences between what, you know municipal and federal government? It's relative to the private market?
Dr Christine:
Interesting question. So there's the difference between state or federal and local government in the fact that they're upgrading it. There's a lot of Policy and Strategic Information coming down. But, still, there are no practical elements for the local government to apply. And so there's a huge mismatch between what they've been told they need to do and then how do we actually go about doing it, which has links to the, you know if we can show leadership and explain to them what they need to be able to do to put some of this, these policies and actions and into the reality that they have. So in the private sector? Not so much we're pushing, because, as you mentioned, there's not a lot of regulation put upon the private sector necessarily to report around at least quite large company. So the onus is on ourselves to drive that, see which suggests those changes, and show the application.
Madeleine:
Yeah, makes sense.
Um, so we got a question in. So do professional services have a large footprint? If we don't fly much, what else would it be?
Carlos:
Okay, I can take that. I'm very. So genuine, if we talk to the general community of services firms and what their businesses generally look like, flights are often a big driver. So if you don't fly Max, you're doing a lot for your footprint. Basically, services generally have a small footprint relative to manufacturing or product companies. So by that, I mean the emissions they create from the work they do. It's called scope. One, it's a sort of near the classification term. And then from there, electricity emissions scope to so they have a small footprint in their own carbon emissions. But then, when you include scope three, and scope three is increasingly mandated and required as part of reporting, you can think about scope three as the emissions from products or services that you use as a service firm. And then also the services that you deliver to your clients. Now, firms have a much larger footprint once you include scope and three emissions services. So 80 to 90% of a services firm's footprint will be in its supply chain, either upstream or downstream. And then, you know, they will often have some, in many cases, a bigger footprint than, say, a coffee roaster. You know we've, we often use that example, a 20-person digital agency will have a larger carbon footprint than a coffee roasting business, even though it's quite counterintuitive. So yeah, great. If you're, if you're reducing your flying, that's a really big lever. But I wouldn't, I also wouldn't assume that just because you're a services firm, you don't have a footprint because unclear increasingly scope three years as being as becoming the default standard. So yeah, that's the I think that's a general view, though, there are differences and businesses like architects and some engineering projects where they're very kind of project specific. But that would be the general view. And there's another.
Madeleine:
Yes. So the other question is, do you have any advice for companies managing those resistant to change to lead the change to be more climate aware?
Grant:
Marketing talk to that, I think, I think building awareness and using educational channels as the way to start that off, we talk about going do whatever you can to go the opposite direction of building resistance, I mean, just trying to ram stuff around or mandate staff, or for staff on people, it just goes nowhere. In fact, it makes things worse. So we recommend starting off a really light touch in terms of some awareness, building stuff, and then maybe some light education-type stuff to get people involved and enthusiastic. Because actually, at the core of all of us, that people really want to do the right thing, we can all look out the window and see climate is changing, see how the environment changing, and the stuff that's going on, and through ERP and networks and so on, understand, you know that it's not just us, I mean, everybody has this perspective on how things are changing and potentially what we can do about it. It's just how we engage in it. There's got to be done well and done right. Otherwise, people can freeze up and then resist.
Madeleine:
Interesting, perfect and Carlos, it looks like you're typing an answer. Do you want to share it?
Carlos:
Yeah, I can share. I was just gonna say thank you. One real opportunity Nicola has is to make the conversation a positive one. So it's, you know, a positive and empowering one about what can we do as a team as a group of people? You know, Think global, act local. What can we do in our organization now that positively contributes? It might not be, you know, the absolute be-all and end-all; it might not be the thing, the one thing that's going to save the world; there isn't, there's probably not going to be one thing, but if you can get out there, you know, go and plant some trees, for example, or organize a fun bike to work day. Or, you know, think about let's have a day off eating meat for one day a week, for example, that, you know, different things for different people, and just make that conversation a really positive. Have an empowering one. I think that goes a long way. People want to be part of smiley conversations rather than the world's ending. And you know, we've got to fix it as quickly as possible. So yeah, that'd be my simple, simple take.
Madeleine:
Wonderful. Thank you. And we're at time. So I want to say a sincere thank you to our three panellists for your expertise, time, and sharing with everyone and to everyone who attended. And with that, we'll say goodbye. Thank you.